sadiq:              00:26          Hi, I'm Sadiq

chosa:              00:27          And I'm Cristian

sadiq:              00:28          And this is episode 93 of shades of Brown and the speak that's sends a lot of Facebook because Facebook big developer conference happened. F eight. Do we know why? That's why it's called our fate is that as there's the real reason, it's called f eight three now.

chosa:              00:46          I always thought it was because like, it's like a real, it's like you can say, it's also like fate. Okay. That I, there's a joke in there like I think for like Facebook,

sadiq:              00:54          you know why it's called Faa, by the way? It's actually really, it's the same reason we shorten accessibility to a 11 wide. There are eight letters and Facebook. Okay.

chosa:              01:03          I like my, I like my bad joke. P in comp sci a lot better. I like that a lot better than that bullshit explanation. I just want to be up front with you. Um, so in my head, cannon, in my head, cannon, it is now it's because it's called phase.

sadiq:              01:18          All right. So, so, so let's, let's get started. So the theme of this, uh, of this, but basically years, uh, keynote I guess, uh, Mark Zuckerberg is talking to you about a code encode privacy, right? He's talking about the future is called a good private. Uh,

chosa:              01:37          the future might be private, but like just as like the for who and as another sidebar, just real quick before we get into it, just think about it. Just think about like being at your company and asking your boss the pay for you to go to faith. Like why, why would anyone like who I don't under, why would you go there? I'm trying to figure that out. I've yet to figure out why anyone would like try and budget time to go to FAA, especially when build happening. And so is Google io like, is it like trying the short end of the steak? Right?

sadiq:              02:04          What if you're like some sort of added like big advertise on Facebook? I think I would imagine there that are folks that are probably very invested into Facebook's platform for various reasons. But yeah, actually let's start with that. With the hall, the privacy of team, right? Like, what, what is Zuckerberg trying to do here? Right? He's trying to, oh, Derek government regulations. Yes. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's like the overall thing.

chosa:              02:25          Let's, let's be real, right? Facebook is trying to pivot the piracy. So the government said he can do it on their terms so governments cannot, um, yeah, it's, you can't break up Facebook and it's all encrypted because, hey, what are you breaking up?

sadiq:              02:36          Yeah. Uh, so they're trying to say that they're, they're shifting their vision from four different company, right. Their focus onto smaller, smaller group social. That where I can ride this is switching the focus to um, uh, Facebook messenger. The, they're going to make everything end to end encrypted. They're going to, they're going to focus on integrating Facebook messenger, whatsapp and Instagram. So he, so he can talk to people no matter which platform you choose to use. Right? So, so it is there, they're essentially, they realized that they can't, like they cannot go the current route of like basically making the newsfeed that are primary social like, uh, like interaction model. So they want to like refocus the whole company around that. And then they have, and they're using the word privacy as, as a way to, uh, okay, Santa didn't reframe the discussion, right? Like the trying to say that,

sadiq:              03:36          hey, uh, we realized that, you know, USP, we fucked up, but I know that they're trying to say they're making more things more privately without saying the fact upright. Like it's like they're not admitting to anything except for like one joke in the keynote where, where, uh, or where did Zuckerberg was like, we haven't had a good record with privacy, which is a, which was fantastic joke. And apparently nobody laughed at that by the way. Uh, like why do tech CEOs trying to make jokes? I don't understand. Uh, because they're, they're always bad at it. Did they have terrible delivery? Uh, so that's not, that's like the gist of like, what, what's, what's actually like what's happening? So that's like, get into like the first bit mass Facebook Messenger is the question you use Facebook messenger. How big of a deal do you think this whole push towards Facebook messenger being like the upcoming future of Facebook, uh, is?

chosa:              04:36          So I want to break this into two parts. We have part number one, which is Facebook messenger being rewritten and also being ported to Mac os and windows that good, that redesign they showed off or being just a friends list, uh, you know, like a, a group, you sort of like groups and then a discover tab. That's pretty great. And that being rewritten to be lighter and more resource of fitbit. Good. Well I'm down for that. The Mac Os and windows version, uh, inevitably will be electron. Facebook probably has like their own like weird cause I know for the, the windows apps like the, um, the native Facebook 10 windows apps, those are actually using some custom built Uaa Ui kit wrapper that will read that, that puts it from Ui kit to UWP. Okay. Which is really weird. So I don't know what Facebook would do that for their desktop apps. The Messenger or if they would just make it a web app because it could also be a progressive web app. He's a redesign of Facebook that rolled out for the desktop is a Pwa. So it could be either or, right. Sort of like a wipe can't rapper or some sort of wrapper.

sadiq:              05:37          Yeah. They said they're going to reduce the size of that by the Golan lines. It's going to be like 30 megabytes and they're going to reduce the startup time. Right. Like they sent us some, and that's, that's actually interesting because like a startup time is a big deal. I have four messaging apps because I feel like, ah, you want to just like get in there except equip message and like you, you don't want to wait for your master gap two, two load like that. That's always the problem with wire. Right? I think wireless is, this is actually a big offender, uh, is that wire is slow to load. Right? Uh, I've always found wire fairly slow. Uh, it has gotten better. It used to be much, much slower. Decrypting messages was a good meme, uh, because it would take forever to decrypt your messages and I iMessage on Ios just launches basically instantly. Right? It doesn't, it doesn't leave a better light if whatever you tell you just lodges like I feel like it's always running in the background. Uh, so it gets, it's just like launches fiscally immediately. Uh, so though that's, that's like the goal. You have to make a message of faster and less heavyweight. So Dick [inaudible] so the more people can use it, basically.

chosa:              06:54          Yes. Evidently there's, there's part two to this, right? So the first part, the more lightweight, um, native desktop apps, more and more platforms, good objectively good things. However, part two is we're also going to be combining whatsapp, Facebook messenger and Instagram direct into one unified chat platform that anyone who has was for either one of those services can talk to each other on. And for that, I think we've talked about before when the news first came out, I am, I, I'm a, I'm of two minds on this because objectively that's a bad idea because then when regulators try to break up Facebook, they're technically the same product. So you really can't spin off Instagram because Instagram and Facebook are now one product, right? You can't eat and they're all encrypted too. So it makes it even harder to break up. Ditto for WHATSAPP. But on the other hand it's really annoying to have like 10 different chat apps. Right? Like it's really annoying to do that. And of course we'd want it to be done via open standards, but like I, I dunno. Well we've been trying to make Xmpp like modernize for a while. We have ride a matrix and it just never seems to be going anyway.

sadiq:              08:02          We have, we have, uh, yeah, like I mean we don't want to bring this back to chat apps discourse, but I'm here it's, Chad has discourse like the fragmentation of chat apps is real and Facebook is trying to reign in their own internal, like we talked about this before, it's just trying to rein in the, the fragmentation within their own path.

chosa:              08:22          And mind you and mind you, these three chat apps are the most use chat apps in the world, right? Like these three big unified is honestly, we could probably say like 75, 80% of the world in terms of chat apps every like everywhere except Asia. Someone has like some form of one of these products, right. Cause I think you don't because you're no longer on whatsapp, but for a time or even you were still using

sadiq:              08:44          whatsapp. Yeah. Like it's, it's, it's, it's actually like, people don't realize how big these apps are, right. And like, because these are sort of like not public facing apps, right? Uh, as a, as much as like they're more geared towards obviously private one to one or group messaging. Uh, we don't realize how just how large the user base for WHATSAPP is, right? Like whatsapp, it's fucking ridiculous. The huge, like what's that by itself was its own company obviously, but like it's just, it's huge in Europe. Like whatsapp is just like the messaging gap, right? They, whatsapp is this basically the thing? So like, like combining these three together into one mega chat up. It's just like, uh, just be, Facebook just becomes the dumb dominant like chatter, like perform. And then this is, that's actually kind of ridiculous if you think about it. Like it's, it's actually kind of absurd. Uh, but it's, it's like is this like really going to change much like for users of these platforms like wellness, like actually changed, uh, how people interact. Like I said, is this really gonna like actually matter?

chosa:              10:01          I think it terms of having a unified because then right, it's these chats has become portable and if they're encrypted, right, if he's, if they're encrypted, sort of the reason to not use Facebook messenger becomes moot. Right? At that point it's just you don't like Facebook itself rather like vendors. I need technical reason. If he is at this point what Facebook, what they can be able to get off your device then is just maybe some location information based off of sniffing the Ip address. But anyone can get that anyways. Right? There's once the chat goes encrypted, there's not a whole lot that Facebook themselves can be pulling off of your, you know, your, your chat specifically for tracking them.

sadiq:              10:37          Uh, those, those, the piece for the Allied Casey Johnson about how, it doesn't matter that it's going into an encrypted because the real, like the data, like the data that Facebook wants is the metadata which is still there. Right. Uh, like who you're talking to, right? How often you're talking. Oh, even like what, like what else? Like what sort of automatic data that they can get. They don't need

chosa:              11:05          get your social network.

sadiq:              11:07          Yeah. Know. Yeah. They don't need the, uh, like this thing is still under location data probably does as metadata. Like they don't need the exact contents of the, of the conversations to make it viable. Right. To like, so an encryption is not like a thank you. If you're still concerned, if you're concerned about Facebook's, uh, privacy related issues, it's, it's, I don't think just adding like I do an encryption is obviously, I mean it's, it's, it's, uh, it's better. It's better than that. They have, it's slightly less matinee and I studied last data than they used to because stuff is end to end encrypted. But, uh, just don't sit still. How far your feet, like they still have all the data they have collected so far. They have all the stuff that they collect via the web ride using, you know, like they're tracking cookies and like, uh, Facebook ads and like what, like all this stuff that's like Instagram. Yeah. The location based stuff like all this stuff already collect this stuff. Not, not enduring the crib, but there's a lot of metadata. Like there's enough metadata to make a business out of it. I think that's a, that's what this Allen keys is trying to get through. It says that phase privacy means uh, something different for phaseable that does for us. Right. They tried to redefine it. Uh, so, so that's, that's like the messaging angle of this. And what else are they doing there?

sadiq:              12:35          There are

chosa:              12:36          mainly focusing on groups. They're really focusing, I think there's a, there's an important piece about that cause they did redesign the mobile apps and the desktop app, like I said earlier, was a good deeds to be redesigned as a Pwa. So, but if it's a focus on this redesign is really on groups and you know, smaller knit social activity, which okay, intern is, you know, is how people are using the product but also makes moderating it a lot more difficult because if someone, because right now Facebook is a place where people say blatantly racist stuff on the timeline or on the newsfeed and we could see that everyone can see being blatantly racist, but look at this cord, right? How hard is this quarter? How, how, how much of a problem is this cord having right now and getting Nazis off their platform. Because if someone's in a private discord especially becomes that did an encrypted, if someone's in a and they're posting just, you know, they're plotting like horrible acts of violence and stuff, how do you know

sadiq:              13:27          you don't, you don't, that's like the gist of it. Like then, uh, the governments around the world and face me, you gonna, you gonna nailed down that like terrorist stuff on your platform and Facebook. It's just like, while we can't see it anymore, it's all, it's all end to end encrypted. What'd you want to us to do? Uh, like this session, like removing the problem by like office, Skate again rather than they can't see it. Like if you can't see if it's all that to encrypted, uh, like that's, yeah, that's a, that's a good point actually. I think the whole moderation aspect of how phase we're going to start to remove public stuff. So they, so they are not accountable for the stuff that's like, so they're going to still, I think have to moderate the, I don't think I got to get rid of the newsfeed. Obviously that's what it makes much sense. But uh, like they got to definitely have to keep an eye on it, but it makes it easier for them to say, hey, most of the stuff is going to happen on, on of Messenger now, which we can see. Yeah.

chosa:              14:29          Okay. Let me ask you this though. Is that, so do you think then that the move to end it encryption for everything is good even, even if it'll protect like, you know, Nazis or other hate groups the same way it protects you and I

sadiq:              14:42          in terms of privacy? Yes, I think that's has always, yeah. Oh, like Bindi it also works if like decentralization to as a concept, right? Because the Nazis can always host her own mass audience. They're going to do, they're going to use the tools as, as, as well as the, like everybody else is using tools. Uh, and I don't think that's, that's enough of a reason to not make these chores because at the end to end encryption is important. It is, it is, I think critical, uh,

sadiq:              15:13          as, as going forward that every messaging platform is end to end encrypted there. Even if it is thought, uh, open source or federated or decentralize this, that we have to have at least some sort of like these, these platforms are so critical to commute. Like Day to day communications are billions of people is I think it is more critical that they be at two encrypted. That if the fact that Nazis are also using the platform, because I mean that's, yeah, that's just going to happen. We, we just have to, we haven't just make, I guess you just have to understand that and let's rebuild these. Uh, so, so what it like if the group, we're talking about moderating and the end of band to band the band. A few folks for our, so the ban specifically, uh, Alex Jones, right? There's the big one. I, I didn't know who Laura Loomer was probably for the best, but I didn't know who Alex Jones says.

sadiq:              16:19          Like most people probably do know who he has unfortunately. Uh, so bunch of people, not just like those are the big names. Those are also like Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, Paul [inaudible], Paul Joseph Watson, right? Like all the, all the, all the bad folks there. These are like all like related people. Like these are all people have like a peer on each other's content or whatever. And they all cried for people. Uh, so like they have, they started banning the pages on, on Thursday, right. On some pages were still there as a little bit and then they did, they were gone. Right. So this is, this is good, this is fine. But I like, I don't agree with the whole lake ask the feasible cause like yeah, we had never allowed this stuff on our platform. I'm like, Bro, this stuff has been on your platform. Like it is. It's not like these are the stuff is new on your platform.

sadiq:              17:10          I, this is not like, not like Alex Jones just appear on your platform like recently. Like, and this is not, but you just decided that now's a good time to do that because you wanted the good press. Right. So that's that. Right. Uh, so this is one of the thing that people talked about is that where this all bright people is to band like related individuals because these are folks like form networks and it's important to sort of dismantle and network as much as it's about the individual people. So you've got, you're gonna dismantle the, uh, you got to dismantle the Facebook groups. You got to dismantle like, uh, whatever, whatever, like the pages that have. So it's like you've got to just spend on the network. And that's what these seem to be doing at hope. Like, this is not a onetime thing, because I don't know if this is going to be like a onetime PR thing because I hope they keep doing it. Uh, without that. That's that news. And then the next news, um, Facebook dating, um,

chosa:              18:12          which is only live in five countries right now. Well, would you, what'd you ever join Facebook dating? I mean, I can't, I don't have Facebook accounts. Well, I guess you already on a, on a dating that were called Mastodon. That's true. That's, that's incredibly true. But I'm like, what if mast on it is secret crushes feature or Eugene don't, don't take away reports at dating. Am I getting too spicy?

sadiq:              18:37          No, that's, that's actually perfectly fine. I mean, yeah.

chosa:              18:43          Well, I mean actually if we're adding dating, we should probably add reports that too, honestly, that deeds that needs reports more than anything else.

sadiq:              18:50          Yeah. Yeah. You got to have that. Um, so Facebook dating, it's available five countries and is launching in 14 more. Right. And there's this, this apparently of a new feature called a secret crush, which, uh, is, it's like you select line nine people, uh, and then you say that you are interested in them and the, and then it sends them a notification, right. Okay, this, this is a scam and it's the power and the this and that personal notification. It doesn't matter if they are already using Facebook, dairy or not. So they get a notification, they're like, hey, so somebody likes you, uh, go sign up for Facebook data to see who they are, write out whatever. I like they, you sign up and if you, if you, if you, Matt, if you select the same, like you feel like one of the people that dislike like the match, then then you get like awesome sort of like, I guess some interaction there. Uh, and that is like, it's, it's not good. Like it's like a, just a growth hack tactic, right? Where you send somebody like, uh, you're in a social is on our platform and he's sending a notification to somebody who's not on the platform asking them to join the pattern to see something about them. Right. That's a growth hack tactic, right.

chosa:              20:08          Soup with a dark pattern. Yeah. That is unethical as fuck. I mean, I'm not surprised because it's during that obviously as a way of getting someone signed up for a feature of how to being opt in, right? Yup. Pretty much

sadiq:              20:20          like it's, it's like the person doesn't have to be signed up for a Facebook and also, uh, listen to the Vergecast apparently. Uh, apparently Facebook, Facebook dating doesn't have like the age, age based matching.

chosa:              20:34          It does, but it doesn't work, does it? They're saying, oh, this, this. So is there a feature too? It's more of the, the nice part about dating apps, bleeding, mortars, okcupid versus Tinder. Because a creek fest, um, you need to give people the most amount of control over who they see and what their preferences are. And while that sometimes can lead to, you know, like racist white people only matching a racist white people, it also helps protect queer people from being around folks who might not, you know, it might be dangerous to them and these kinds of features just aren't really working with that. What that motto or that kind of thinking right then more designed to get everyone banging, which isn't really how dating works. Like Facebook dating the in this feature seems like if you have a crush on someone and you like, and you would give them a grid of nine people and you tell him to pick a crush and it's like, oh, that's not the person like that just make you feel weird. Like I dunno, like how am I supposed to feel?

sadiq:              21:31          The whole thing seems like a poorly thought. It was like, it seems like somebody at Silicon Valley you would thing this is a good idea. Like this seems extremely silicon valley. This seems like somebody had silicon valley. It was like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if we did this, uh, feature where like people, uh, other people that they like and then they get a notification and then they have to see it. Um,

chosa:              21:54          Cesar seems like it was designed by a boy.

sadiq:              21:56          Definitely designed by does that, that fundamentally hundred percent,

chosa:              22:00          this feature, this feature they had, they had a woman on stage presented. But I feel like this feature was thought up by assistant

sadiq:              22:06          boy. Definitely hundred percent divided by the most says dude, uh, on this planet. Uh, definitely like this is like hundred percent devops, but somebody, uh, somebody, uh, yeah, that's, that's not good. It's not great. It's not available in the United States. So Christian I guess, uh, you're out of luck. I haven't, whenever you say I'm not even on Tinder anymore cause it's too much work. Also, Tinder is creepy as fuck. I like their whole, uh, the way that the APP functions is extremely questionable.

chosa:              22:40          It's basically it's time to just a date on a mastodon is what you're saying.

sadiq:              22:44          Yeah. But then like, sidekick falls over and then you message never gets there or whatever.

chosa:              22:52          Yeah. If you like that really do you signed you finally, you know you can spend forever sending that Dm. You're like, Ooh, I'm going to be smooth. I'm going to be slick. I'm gonna slide in, I'm alike, you know we're going to have like a a Minecraft date and then it never gets sent. Cause sidekick person. Um, sidekick is not a man by the way. Side cake is gender neutral. A sidekick is gender neutral. The sidekick person decided to tell you to go fuck herself. It says not today. Friend.

sadiq:              23:18          Sidekick. Sidekick is like the worst worst wig when person, I guess like it's just like not with it

chosa:              23:26          basically. MMM. If you ever make a fork and mass on and we need to make sidekick and we also need to make a wing wing person. I was like, yeah, once, once essentially like, you know, sidekick makes sure the messages get sent in the queue and then wing wing person just bounces it. If it doesn't get, if it doesn't, if it doesn't get sent, instead of it giving back, you know, the queue getting back,

sadiq:              23:49          my God, you could have multiple queues and head such as such as life. So let's talk about more weird things that Facebook is doing. A Facebook portal still around. Um, it didn't get discontinued and it's actually getting support is getting whatsapp support and it's also launching internationally? Uh, absolutely not. MMM.

chosa:              24:18          Why not? That good shit.

sadiq:              24:21          It's, it's, it's, it's like, it's like a tablet. It's like a huge, it's like a long tablet

chosa:              24:26          with the camera echo show. Yeah.

sadiq:              24:27          Yeah. It's like a, it's an oral tablet with the camera. Like it's, it's mounted on a, on a camera, on a thing that has a camera on it. Um, it's going to be launching in Canada apparently and Europe in the, in the fall. Uh, so now you can also do whatsapp calls on it, which I suppose, you know, if you already have this, that's, that's useful. Uh, that's about it I think. I think, I think that's the, that's the extent of that story. Apparently Facebook said that the sales or the portal have exceeded expectations. Uh, which is the opposite of what game developers came. Publishers say, uh, but yeah, like how many, how many people are buying. It's like, I really want to know the actual sales numbers on this because I want to know who buys this and why. Like I had like I really want to know like who buzz

chosa:              25:19          if you buy, if you bought a Facebook portal, oh my,

sadiq:              25:22          what do you, your audiences has bought a feasible Portland.

chosa:              25:24          What if someone did though? I want to know that somebody bought it

sadiq:              25:27          to dismantle it and see, look at the tech and side or whatever.

chosa:              25:30          Ooh. What if you actually flashed like the build of Andrea that's on there and be like purism I'm on it

sadiq:              25:34          when I say yeah and what it was like somebody hacked it and like, yeah, like made it like, I don't know, some sort of security camera thing.

chosa:              25:41          Oh. Speaking of which purism I know you're getting funding to recently. Do you want to separate sponsor? Our podcast contacted Tuesdays, brown.com

sadiq:              25:52          oh my God. Do you want to explain the context of what the joke was? I think for some, I mean,

chosa:              25:57          yeah, well, I mean we're, we're basically talking about two asinine products, right? Facebook portal and then purism fork and mastodon. That's what I joke came from earlier. Essentially the drama here is that, um, purism paid Eugen to, you know, make a fork of mass on it, which is fine, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that, you know, like get your bread Eugen I understand. Maybe put more of that bread back into the community, but that's another conversation for another day. But I wait, but the thing on that fork, those at the removing moderation tools like ports and all of that, that's the weird part about it. That's the part that don't fuck with.

sadiq:              26:30          And then there were like, just bad, just block people and I'm just like, hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

chosa:              26:37          Um, however, though the purism project does, they are making, trying to make open source hardware and like they're working like open source mobile devices and stuff and they're like trying to get funding to actually make, you know, a private and open source ecosystem of like actual consumer products.

sadiq:              26:52          Stuff like this is always like how much do I trust with making a phone

chosa:              26:58          when he can't even, well, um, according to a couple of listeners of the show, from what I've heard, the purism laptops at the very least, so really good devices. Uh, they're, they're pretty pricey though. Like they're pretty pricey but there, uh, but for, for what the hardware getting in the build with them, they're actually a pretty good computers,

sadiq:              27:17          but it doesn't leave me skeptical about the above. These companies that are trying to build like hardware and also trying to get into software and like the whole thing about also like the drama was the day a day like forked a bunch of open source android Apps, right? Like the, like the Tuskegee got forked and then the didn't like give Tuskegee like any sort of like credit or whatever. I like it was just like the fork Husky and put it in like this. We branded for them like, um, it sets, it's rude to do that. Uh, by the way, the license allows for it, but it's still extremely like extremely rude.

chosa:              28:00          They're basically like, but that's like, so I guess for context where we, some of our listeners who aren't that into the open source thing, you remember how yesterday, last week we're talking about luminary. If you fork and open an APP, right? Like Tuskegee and he did a blood purism did, that's a luminary move. Technically, technically not really like breaking the breaking any rules or laws, however, that's kind of fucked up.

sadiq:              28:21          Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's not violating the letter of the license, but it's, I think it's definitely one of the things like the spirit of the lessons, right? That's, I think that's the thing.

chosa:              28:28          And if you're, if it opensource company on what you, what you live on is going to be the, the spirit or the goodwill of the community, you really do not want to be doing that charism. Don't go full cyanogen

sadiq:              28:40          Ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Please, please. No. MMM.

chosa:              28:47          W what else were we talking about? Vr, right? This is the next big one. Yeah. Yeah. We're moving on to Vr. This is big. Basically the oculus quest came out, which is a $400 self contained Vr headset and I want one, I kind of want one and the problem is like a, it's owned by Facebook and B, it's also a $400 VR headset and I can't do Vr for more than like 25 30 minutes. Like earlier in the week I was playing like this horror game I think was resident evil. Why do whichever, whatever. It was like the one that has this for PSVR. Yeah,

chosa:              29:19          rest we'll say. Yeah, resident evil seven I think it was those, yes. I was just playing it and oof, oof. Like I, I can only do it for like 25 minutes or it gets too intense. I have to sit down, close my eyes and just lay down. I think it's mainly two p's. I know that I'm with Sony's implementations is pretty low quality Vr, but I dunno, I was just, it was, it was fun. And it was intense and I was enjoying the experience. But my, I just had like some weird cognitive dissonance, right. Just like had a sit down. I felt like I was gonna throw up.

sadiq:              29:49          Right. Like I like, I've wanted to try and be as like, I'm kind of interested in like these, these standalone or like VR and that's because I can't do rooms. The room scale stuff does it just not feasible for me to read that I don't have the physical space to make room scale VR work. So like I, I have the hardware, like the, like deep PC to make it happen. Right. I don't have the actual physical space to make it happen. So that's, that's out of the question. But, so I'm always interested in like, stuff that's more, more accessible, for lack of a better term. Uh, it's like, it's a portable, it's, it's stand alone, right? Uh, it's like you don't have to [inaudible] thing, like, just have to keep it charged. And like you said, uh, so PSVR, I already have a ps four, so I was interested in PSVR. Like I saw some, like did the waypoints stream was day a lot of VR games.

chosa:              30:37          I did the kingdom hearts VR experience. So when the, I actually played through that, that one is pretty dope. Yeah. That one tends to no movement. I've learned that like the interactive experiences where you don't move around are way less intense. Like super hot in Vr. I can't do it. Oh, super out of VR

sadiq:              30:52          sounds like. Yes. Like it looks a lot like a flow, like super hot is already like I'm kind of like extremely focused on the movement, uh, aspects of it. And that's like trying to do that in Vr seems a little bit, uh,

chosa:              31:06          if I had like an HTC vibe, like the pure regular Ahlquist went for PC, I would be better because it's essentially it's the frame rate, right? I think, I think my issue is just the frame rate and the quality of the screens lead to a subpar VR experience.

sadiq:              31:18          It's the, that's, that's definitely true. Uh, and also like [inaudible] quest is also going to be like lacking on the, on the resolution and the quality front. Right. Because it is obviously

chosa:              31:31          it's running on a snapdragon eight 35. Um, it has an old led screen, so that's better than, you know, a couple of the alternative options. And oculus is previous quest Vr headset. But I, I think that what makes me so tree but this one is that you get room-scale inside out tracking, you get all of that was just for $400 what the two controllers and given the limitations. Right. And I think this one, this is probably a board of higher quality VR than Psvr is

sadiq:              31:56          probably. Yeah. And I'm standing alone too, so you don't have to like, you know, I have a ps four ready. So like that's, that's pretty cool. I'm actually very curious about this Alban also the same time, uh, I don't want to, I don't know what I'd like by a Facebook product, which is, which is a no, like, like, like I don't, I don't use Facebook. So I'm like, were you hesitant to like do, do you need like a Facebook account to download apps? Like

chosa:              32:21          you said, see how this works is that you just install the oculus app to pair once to your phone and then it loads like lettuce for a Martin. Then it's all standalone. From there, you can install apps. Everything just connects to your Wifi. We only need it for the initial set up to and to use the oculus discovery APP. Everything else is done through the head.

sadiq:              32:38          Okay. That's, that's good because I was worried they give it to make you sign out, like you've been making a log in with Facebook or something like that. That would be a bit of a no go for me anyway. Uh, yeah. I'm actually really just because I want to play that one game that I saw on the waypoints stream, which has beat Sabre.

chosa:              32:55          Ooh, beat Saber is fun. That one. That one is pretty chill because it's, I think it's just, it's a movement. It's anything where I have to like walk around. That's a fucks me up.

sadiq:              33:04          Yeah. I mean, beats beats zebra is not like, you don't have to walk around. Right. You don't,

chosa:              33:08          yeah. You just stand still and you beat things. If you're Saber,

sadiq:              33:11          like the music I love rhythm again was Ashley. I like, I find them really cool. They like stuff like thumper or like uh, [inaudible] say probably like I saw it on played and I was like, Holy Shit, that looks really fun. Uh, I don't want to try it. Uh, so they, I dunno. Oh kind of, kind of want to get it up at the same time. I don't know. I have enough games like I know I don't need more games.

chosa:              33:35          I mean you could probably just go to a best buy. I use it for like half an hour and then like probably make that decision yourself. I like if I did not give vrs at nick the other day after, um, after playing resident evil, I would have bought one already. But because of the VR like sickness stuff, that's how I'm holding off.

sadiq:              33:51          Yeah. I don't know if I'm going to get VR sickness. I guess I have to try it to figure that out. Like if I have managed to come together, like I've never tried it. I remember that was like a ps VR demo, like last year at the mall, but I'd never like, it was a public demos, so I was like, whatever. Uh, so, but like I'm curious, I'm like at this one, I'm actually curious for a while I was kind of Eh, on Vr because a lot of the stuff looks like expensive than like finicky and like, oh, not, not very good quality, but it seems to be like, you know, slowly but surely starting to get better, uh, uh, and less finicky. So I'm curious, uh, so did they announced like a release date on those things that are like a release

chosa:              34:32          now? I think he's a ships in like two weeks or so. May 12th, May 27th, somewhere at the end of the month is when this is shipping.

sadiq:              34:39          Yeah. Yeah. So like if, if it's available in Canada, I mean, okay. Uh, I'm curious, Ash, I'm actually, I'm considering it now actually, but, um, that's, let's move on to the other big v. Like there were two VR related, uh, this question wasn't announced that Faa, like it's done as part of their faith

chosa:              34:59          or it last year, but there's also an updated rafters essentially like this summer desire and then, but just, you know, um, of course connects to the PC with the cable. But the more interesting one is that valve this week announced the index. It had leaked a while ago, but now they an official reveal with, you know, press at their headquarters and all of that.

sadiq:              35:16          And it is, let's start off with the price. The price is, I think it's important that we measure the price first a to put everything into context. Uh, it's nine, nine, so it's basically a grand, right? It's $1,000. When does it get US dollars? Uh,

chosa:              35:30          which is a lot, right? Cause there's oculus rifts, the latest models only like 500, I think. Like the one that plugs into a PC, I don't think it's thousand. Let me the, the Oculus, I'm actually look up the pricing.

sadiq:              35:40          Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so then the specs of it, like they're focusing on like,

chosa:              35:53          yes, the rift as the new updated rift is only $399 and that's, that's the same price. It's actually the oculus quest. And this is what this one just plugs into your PC. Yeah. And it comes to controllers to,

sadiq:              36:05          all right. So, and this doesn't come and controllers are, I think, I think that's the problem too. And like it doesn't come with controllers like you have to buy the controllers. Yes. Um, so the pricing, let me just, uh, okay. Okay. So there was the complete bundle is nine 900 and 999. Right. So you get a headset, you get a pair of controllers and he'd get a pair of steam Vr, like got to find out tracking boxes. Uh, and so that's the, and like the controllers, the controllers by separately is like two 79 and they had is that's on this four 99? Uh, yeah. It's expensive. Right. And like, like just the stuff that they're focusing on is longterm VR usage. Like that's like the pitch, right? That you're going to be able to, uh, use this longterm good at being uncomfortable. Like the field of view thing is that they're focusing on like the, the, they're going to have a higher field of view.

sadiq:              37:01          They're going to have a, they're gonna support like three different refresh rates. So 90 Hertz, one 20, and one 44. Uh, but, but like the demo that the presented, uh, most of the stuff couldn't reach, like keep us stable one 44. Uh, that's unfortunate. But, uh, also like they have like, um, it's also like room-scale right. And so you had the Dvo to the two tracking stations that are required for the, for the room scale. And also the problem is like they have to be mounted in specific locations and he have room to make it work. And that's also like problem I guess. Uh, if you don't have that, uh, well, one, is there anything else that's like the uh, like the screens, the, uh, the guy, like I don't actually know that much about VR is like really say like if this is like,

chosa:              37:54          it was a Vr headset, like without actually where people trying it and it being in a real world use, you know, like we'll use these case, we could really can't tell what's special about it. Um, I think that it's, it's likely it's a combination, right? Of all the best specs for Vr, right? Like it's the best version of the screen, right? It's the best screen. It's like the best, you know, design. But is it worth $1,000 when you can get an oculus rift, the s and from all, you know, from all we heard the oculus rifts or not that bad devices for $600 less. That also includes the could the, it's like the $600 increase for what's marginal gains.

sadiq:              38:29          Yeah. And like this seems to be like a, for like a really like a first gen product from valve. Right? Um,

chosa:              38:35          if Bob doesn't have any games, like what, what, what, what, what special game is for this piece. At the end of the day, hardware is hardware, right? Like PSVR is pretty shit, but it has good games for it. That's why people put up with it.

sadiq:              38:45          Yeah, exactly. Like you were already here. Where the fuck is this yours supposedly a games studio. Uh, at some point you made some, you know, pretty good games, you know, like, you know, Halflife uh, portal. Uh, where does the portal game friend Vr, like what's, what's going on? Like a portal gaming vro sounds amazing by the way. Uh, if the, if the actually bothered to make like, did nothing is launching with like with this game and they probably, there's only one game coming out in like in later, in 2019. Uh, so like, and the demo to the did was with, uh, with like, with like no man's sky in Vr. And it wasn't even like no man's sky, like customized, like, uh, like a special version for four index. It was just like the vibe stuff, uh, that did ran on, on the index. So I'm just like, like what is this thing is like without the software it's kind of pointless to have all this fancy hardware like well what, what are you going to do with it? Uh, yeah, I that this is like the story of about like it did, it, did they just do, I guess they don't want to bother with software right away,

chosa:              39:57          but no one's going to buy it. Cause what's the point, right? Like if I was going to get a Vr headset, the reason I'm, the reason I at the [inaudible] because since they released the go, you have so much software for it that's already exists. Right. And oculus is actively according developers to make sure that, that that machine comes up, software that will work for it. The valve when it's like, oh, it works at steam. Um, but as we could tell, working with steam does not an indicator of quality games.

sadiq:              40:22          That's,

chosa:              40:24          I'm not, I'm not going to get a Vr headset, just a riot and it's just a run greenlight game.

sadiq:              40:27          Oh my God. Imagine that Shit. Oh yeah, no, no. Oh, like nothing. Nothing about this is too, the tech is like the finger tracking, like you need the like the tracking tech where they just like get up tracks and fingers. It's supposedly impressive, but like the, the ars Technica Porter Sam, they couldn't get it to work properly. Right. Like his fingers were just like not tracked properly and like, yeah. Okay. I imagine that's like a bug or something. Like it's probably not final software or whatever, but you know, like it's not, it's not a great, great, uh, look. Uh, so did they say when it will launch? I don't think they said when, when, when the Vr, it's like when the, when you can use like preorder it or is it like

chosa:              41:17          available for our preorders opens up next.

sadiq:              41:21          Oh yeah, man, it's available but it's also not available in Canada. It's mobile in the US. Uh, and most of western Europe. No, UK by the way, a strange no UK, uh, no Canada. Just the contiguous us. Does that mean Hawaii is excluded? Is that what that means?

chosa:              41:43          You can't find us in Alaska to Hawaii.

sadiq:              41:45          Oh my God. Yeah. That would be really weird.

chosa:              41:49          Valve valve index only available in Nova Scotia and nowhere else. Oh my God.

sadiq:              41:54          Imagine that Shit.

chosa:              41:56          Uh, but it sounds like a Google move right there. That sound like a Google, right? It's like extremely Google.

sadiq:              42:02          Ah, yeah. So then that's the valve index. I don't know if there's anything else really to talk about without getting into the nitty gritty of the, of the, of the hardware. But if you won that you can read the Va, the ars technica article, which is really good actually. It's, it's really detail. It goes into like why, what, how the tech works and why it's important and whatever and what sort of various tech that the are using that. So you know, impressive. But it's not enough and like it's just not enough to have the tech be impressive. I think

chosa:              42:32          2019 tech is not enough. You got specs. Sure. Who gives a fuck though, right? Like I dunno just because your VR is marginally better. If I'm using like if I'm just like watching Minecraft in a theater mode right already, something like that. Or even worse of reasoning, like the label kind of breath of the wild VR like Oh God,

sadiq:              42:51          yeah. It's like the quality has to be like the quality of the games have to be there. Like it has to be good enough. And I think that's where, because Vr is succeeding where where? Uh, because it's, it has the, it has the software, right. I'll kill this has the software is DC I guess also have the software. But it's like, yeah, like it's why, why would he buy this over HTC vibe pro or us on an oculus rift? Right. Like a rift as like why would he buy this over, over any of those. Like there's no reason to write unless you're like, I don't know. Unless you'd like buying valve heart.

chosa:              43:25          Well I guess this one is going to have Linux support, right? Like official. It should have official than it support. I mean, I know they didn't mention it, but since valve is putting really hard for Linux gaming to become a thing, I guess this might be the best headset to run Linux VR on. It's Vr. Even really a thing on Linux. Don't, there's like two people who are four people, two or four people who listen. Who can give me an answer on that? Please do. Please let me know. It is a piece of trash, so I don't, I don't know. Can I know if I'm Macko Wes, the oculus headsets don't run the only one that runs the HTC vibe. MMM. Oh my God. Hold on a second. What if, okay, hear me out. Hear me out. We entering here. Me Out. All right. We bring back comp is, but it's a VR exclusive Lennox desktop environment.

sadiq:              44:09          Oh my God. It's imagine bouncing windows, but in Vr,

chosa:              44:13          wobbly windows. I imagine the cube in Vr

sadiq:              44:16          and the a and the fire windows like you, what do you minimize the window like disappears at a bunch of fire. Uh,

chosa:              44:24          yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh Wow. That'd be sick. Sick VR effects. I mean, [inaudible]

sadiq:              44:30          barely works on the, what makes you think it's

chosa:              44:32          going to work and Vr headset. They, it, everyone's moved to Wayland now. That's a good joke. Wait, really? I actually don't know if, I'm pretty sure Katie is now shipping with like Waylon by default.

sadiq:              44:43          I actually did not know. I haven't used Linux on the desktop for a long ass time.

chosa:              44:47          Yeah. The last time you used the or was the thing of, I'm pretty sure we've now all unanimously decided to stop using x or even like what is the, is it the organization to act like, I don't even know. That sounds like x or you know, it was probably the most kingdom hearts.

sadiq:              45:02          He's a software x dog is like something like Zara San Art. Yeah, exactly.

chosa:              45:07          Please. It's the organic, Oh my God. Kingdom hearts for the x or good dishes for years. Half the battle shitty desktop environments. You have now reached the final boss Katie 4.0 0.1 my God. Listen before, before Katie hundreds get mad at me. For some of you who may not be around, you have to remember the initial release of KT four was slow as fuck. It was rough. It was slow as shit. When it first came out. The first couple of years at Katie, we were still running Katie 3.5 just for speed alone and people that people just like switched to know

sadiq:              45:40          two because they were like, fuck this, I brought, uh, are the social like x fc or like some people just move to like tiling windows managers. Yeah. They didn't fix it though. They did fix it eventually. Yeah. The kitty five right now is really good. It's probably much better than none. Three and it's current state. I have no idea. I don't use desktop Linux and I'm not planning on using it, uh, in the future. Foreseeable. Yeah. I didn't know why I would use it, but uh,

chosa:              46:07          why not use desktop Linux? You know, let's, let's do the desktop Linux challenge.

sadiq:              46:12          That's, that sounds like the, the least. I don't know if it's a fun challenge or if it's just like, it's just like

chosa:              46:21          why you got to chill the desktop Linux users. There's good people.

sadiq:              46:23          I don't, I don't, I like, I respect all, all my fellow Lennox Nerd, a dust, dust up users. But I deal with Linux on a daily basis for work related things. And then really, really did not want to be dealing with Linux on a desktop level. We're have to deal with on a personal level, right? Like I had like service side is one thing. The next is good at that. Okay. The most reasonably good at that. I don't want to be dealing with the desktop stuff like really didn't, uh, I just done with that. We have lost half our list. No, no people, people who use desktop to some of them with probably at least agree with be partially that let make some desktop is, this is not, not the greatest experience to put it mildly. So as another we have best tough every Linux dance type. Sir, I think we can wrap up the show. Although cloud as [inaudible] McCloud our carb, uh, you can find us a two shades of brand.com email address contacted two shades of brown.com. Email us about the state of Katie on the desktop. I guess like, I dunno.

chosa:              47:39          Pretty good. Katie is doing pretty well.

sadiq:              47:41          It is rock solid. Like Open Susan, you know, good shit. Okay. Uh, Christian ad. Where do people find you to send them some like the lovings hate mail, I guess.

chosa:              47:54          Um, you can, you can start Linux users revolution with me at find a 10 for that social where we will take down the, the elitist static from, uh, from,

sadiq:              48:06          from blocking us from using Linux. I'm not talking, he said, let us go use whatever ls you want. A whatever it was. It's windows phone. Don't use that anymore. It's probably best that you don't use it. It's unmaintained and 10 not maintained, uh, stead as Rep. Rest in peace, windows, phone,

chosa:              48:24          uh, however, um, free BSD is the best. Oh, us. Until next week. Goodbye.